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Post by Athans on Dec 23, 2014 1:44:16 GMT -6
Most atheists and even many believers have a problem with organized religion, whether that be a church in general or something like the Catholic Church. My question is WHY is organized religion bad and how do you define it.
I ask this for a couple of reasons. First I want to point out that I do understand the problems we have had in the past, as well as current issues. I do certainly believe it is a problem when the Church is seen as a powerful political leader, like the Catholic Church used to be. The Catholic Church literally used to control Europe. Then of course we have the Church of England to a lesser extent and things such as Islamic governments in the Middle East. I doubt very many people would agree with the power and influence of those I listed above, except for the extremely religious, and of course they would want it to be their preferred faith. I think we can agree this causes major problems.
I guess what I want to focus on is a particular denomination or branch of a religion or even a specific Church. We certainly have issues with priests, and people in leadership positions, raping or molesting young children. This is always a problem. We also have bad denominations, such as the FLDS (Fundamentalists Latter Day Saints,) which could be considered a cult. I guess I want to randomly mention the Church of Scientology, which is a cult and does horrible things. There are also single Churches that are problems, such as some of the mega churches or churches like Westboro Baptist Church (which is unaffiliated with the Baptist Church.) We also read a book about Pentecostal snake handlers, which I have a serious problem with due to them allowed children near dangerous animals and teaching them that screwing with these animals is okay. Once again, I do not think anyone will agree these things are good. But does this make ALL organized religion bad?
The reason I bring up this topic is because of currently experiences as well as my upbringing and studies. As many of you know, our children are baptized and will be raised loosely Christian (meaning at a Liberal church that does not pound it into their head so bad they will never recover.) Many atheists disagree with this and do not understand how I can do this being a non-believer. First, I am not religious, I do not believe in Christ as my personal savoir, so rubbing a little bit of water on their head does not mean anything to me. Most important, it is important to my wife and her family and since I do not believe, I do not care. I also plan on telling my kids the story of Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy and I assume there will not be any long term affects.
Anyways, my son is currently going to preschool at my wife’s church (Shepherd of the Valley Lutheran Church) and everything about the place makes me feel good. Everyone is friendly and happy. One of the staff members is the sister of one of my wife’s best friends growing up. I like her very much and my younger son has a crush on her. Nearly all of my son’s friends are from this church. When we go there for his different preschool events, they are always a positive experience. We had one recently where we went around and did different activities and finished in a room with one of the pastors leading the kids in singing. My younger one, the one not actually in the class was the star of the show and made everyone laugh. It is true they sang about God and Jesus and guess what? I did not melt…nor did I leave a brainwashed believer. Everything about the place makes me feel good. We have donated food to their box for the food shelf. Nearly every time I go in there I wish I could work there just because of how the place makes me feel. The problem is I have that little not believing in God problem…
Besides this experience I have extensive experience in dealing with many different religions and denominations. I was raised loosely Lutheran Christian (I did Sunday school and we went to church on the holidays.) I went on a number of church trips and camps. I asked for Jesus into my life and for a sign. I never got one. Yet I only have good memories. The church I went too was fairly Liberal though I think they did lean Conservative on a few things, such as evolution. There were a couple other minor things but overall, it was mostly positive.
I was also a Chaplin’s assistant while in Tech School in the US Air Force. While in Basic Training I went to Mormon services. Both were positive experiences, especially going through those tough conditions.
Between my wife going to an all-girl Catholic University and my major in religious studies, as well as traveling to Europe and the Middle East with the Air Force, I have been to large variety of services and gatherings of many different religions and denominations. Nearly every single one was positive…or at least not negative. I always found the Mormons to be very friendly and I like their family aspect. I also appreciated the lack of judgment by the Catholics. I have gone to Catholic services more than anything else, at a number of different churches. I never take Communion, especially at Catholic churches because to do not allow non-Catholics to take Communion. Here is the thing though…not a single place ever asked people if they were Catholic or not, in addition to that not once have I received a dirty look, or even a look, or NOT taking Communion. My favorite was the Baha’I gathering. Their policy is that they can only accept donations from members. If a non-member donates, it is given to charity.
This has been my extensive experience. So I ask…do you simply dislike organized religion because you dislike religion or the way the media has portrayed it? Do you simply dislike it because the particular church you were brought up in was one of the “bad” ones? Do you believe not all organization is the same and some groups are not only not harmful, but positive? Or are they all bad? Is it the organization that is bad? I ask that because many atheists organize into groups…How do you define organized religion and what are your objections?
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Post by Julia on Dec 31, 2014 17:48:06 GMT -6
I am against organized religion because while the founders of one may have good intentions (though that does not appear to be the case in today's organized religions) it can spiral downhill very quickly and result in people's egos inflating until they believe they can kill anyone who goes against their religion. Examples include the burning of Pagans and that creepy christian pastor who called for the murder of all gay people. I am also against it because I was abused by strict Christians and they often used religion against me and forced it on me.
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Post by Athans on Dec 31, 2014 19:40:13 GMT -6
Thank you for your rely Julia and thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. I understand how personal experiences and the history of Christian's treatment of Pagans can make you feel this way. I am not trying to lessen your experiences and pain, quite the opposite, it helps to know why people feel how they do. If you simply skimmed my bit I suggest you read it more closely. I do address the horrible things that SOME groups and churches have done, there is no denying that. Yes, the Westboro Baptist Church has some horrible people but is it fair to use them as the face of Christianity or organized religion? I think not. Christianity certainly has a bloody history with Pagans and I address that too when I talk about when a Church becomes too powerful. As far them starting out good and spiraling down hill, I have to disagree on a couple of point. You will probably agree with this one, but I would argue some of them were possibly or probably founded by people with BAD intentions. In this post we discuss a point brought up by Bill Maher, that the Mormon Church was founded as a sex cult. I certainly believe one can make that argument. At the same time, the church that resulted, today's LDS, is NOT a sex cult and is very diverse having both liberal and conservative branches. This could be a case of a church starting out with bad intentions and turning into something good. I do agree that things can spiral down and egos can play a role, but is that organized religion, religion, or just human nature? We see this type of thing happen all the time without religion being involved and we certainly see it in politics. If anything organization and power is the problem. That can include religion, but does not have to. The one thing I urge is to consider the big picture. Ben Affleck really nailed this point when criticizing Bill Mahers view of Islam. Basically Maher points to the bad things Islam has done (just as you point to your experiences and the gay hating pastor) and Ben explains that that argument is racist (or prejudice.) This is the classic argument people use to justify racism. They say things like "a black guy mugged me, therefore black people are thugs and criminals." Or "50% of the prison population, therefore black people are criminals." That is perverting statistics and numbers or using a vast minority to represent a majority. There certainly are bad apples, the gay hating pastor is one of them, and he should certainly be called out for his bigotry. BUT, what about all the Churches and religious people that do not believe this and are appalled by this? All I am saying is do not condemn those that are not part of the problem as you would not like it done to you. I can find some nasty things done by Pagans. In Ibn Fadlan's Journey to Russia, he describes his experience with the Pagans he runs into. They had a few...questionable...practices. One was taking a person with skills and locking them in a wooden box hanging from a tree as an offering to the gods. Another practice was, when a man dies, take his wife and/or servants, rape them, and then send them out on the raft to be burned to death along with the body. Do I believe this represents you or most Pagans, especially Pagans of today? Certainly not, that would be absurd! I am sure you know, being a Wiccan, you deal with constant misconceptions and judgement and I can imagine how that feels. So is it fair to do that to everyone else? Anyways, thanks for sharing your story and helping us understand why people feel the way they do. |
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Post by Wren on Jan 1, 2015 10:55:51 GMT -6
While not all people in organized religion may be the way I described (I actually have a Christian friend I hang out with and she's nice) they still don't really do much to call out those religious "charities" that go to poor countries and instead of building hospitals, build churches. They force their religion on poor countries and it results in places like Uganda with their horrible laws, based on organized religion. That's another thing I really have a problem with. I guess that's one of the big reasons I don't like organized religion, they don't stand up against people in their belief system who are only doing things to be selfish. I'm sure there are lots of great charities based on organized religion, but people need to start standing up against ones whose only aim is to evangelize. I'm using this example because, like you mentioned with the racism thing, I'm not judging all members of an organized religion. I'm not saying they're all bad people. I just think that the "good" ones don't do enough to stand up against the "fake" followers.
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Post by Wren on Jan 2, 2015 1:54:50 GMT -6
About that thing you said with the guy's experience with the Pagans....Paganism is not an organized religion, it is very personal and since we don't all follow one book/set of rules there is really no representation of "a true Pagan". It sucks that some of them do really creepy stuff like that, but it's not actually set as an "official" ritual in the Pagan religion because as a religious belief its not an organized one. I know you said you don't think this represents all of us, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on that.
And as a response to "is it fair to do that to everyone else?" I don't do that to everyone else, really.... I just call people out when they're trying to enforce religious laws or are using religion and the excuse of belief to hurt others. Like I said in another thread, I'm even friends with a Christian who is super nice. She doesn't force her beliefs on everyone, and if the majority of people in organized religion were the same in that way, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I wish more members of organized religions spoke out against the fundamentalists because then I think people like me wouldn't feel so harsh towards them.
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Post by Athans on Jan 7, 2015 6:51:34 GMT -6
While not all people in organized religion may be the way I described (I actually have a Christian friend I hang out with and she's nice) they still don't really do much to call out those religious "charities" that go to poor countries and instead of building hospitals, build churches. They force their religion on poor countries and it results in places like Uganda with their horrible laws, based on organized religion. That's another thing I really have a problem with. I guess that's one of the big reasons I don't like organized religion, they don't stand up against people in their belief system who are only doing things to be selfish. I'm sure there are lots of great charities based on organized religion, but people need to start standing up against ones whose only aim is to evangelize. I'm using this example because, like you mentioned with the racism thing, I'm not judging all members of an organized religion. I'm not saying they're all bad people. I just think that the "good" ones don't do enough to stand up against the "fake" followers. You bring up a couple of interesting points. I too agree with you on the goals a lot of these missions have. These people need food, vaccines, clean water, not Bibles. Catholic teachings (no sex, no condoms) has drastically increased the spread of HIV in Africa. As far as people speaking out, that is tricky. How much is enough? What lengths must one go through? This makes me think of the current situation in the United States with the police force. I know not all cops are shooting unarmed black kids, but I ask, where are the cops speaking out against it? Where are the cops speaking out saying the officer was wrong? The fact that there are no cops speaking out, I can only assume they ALL AGREE with the events that have taken place. I would simply like to see them acknowledge it... So what should we ask of religious people? I have a lot of experience with many types of religion, especially Christianity. Many of them do speak out. Many of them speak out against the fundamentalists. They say they dislike the fundamentalists just as much as atheists do, if not more, because the fundamentalists represent all Christians, which offends them. Some are more public about it, others are not. How much is enough? Do people need to protest? Sacrifice their well being or even their life? I consider myself part of the atheist community, even though I prefer not to identify with that term. Atheists have many of the same problems that Christians do. I do my part by calling them out on social media, calling them out on a blog dedicated to the topic, and I made this forum to do that (and more.) I want to publish a book in the future addressing the issue. Because of all of this, I spend more time arguing with people in my own community than anything else. Am I doing enough? Should I be doing more? We can all say we want to see people do more, but WHAT exactly. And are we doing as much as we could do, or are we simply pointing out that other people can do more? |
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Post by Athans on Jan 7, 2015 7:20:37 GMT -6
About that thing you said with the guy's experience with the Pagans....Paganism is not an organized religion, it is very personal and since we don't all follow one book/set of rules there is really no representation of "a true Pagan". It sucks that some of them do really creepy stuff like that, but it's not actually set as an "official" ritual in the Pagan religion because as a religious belief its not an organized one. I know you said you don't think this represents all of us, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on that. And as a response to "is it fair to do that to everyone else?" I don't do that to everyone else, really.... I just call people out when they're trying to enforce religious laws or are using religion and the excuse of belief to hurt others. Like I said in another thread, I'm even friends with a Christian who is super nice. She doesn't force her beliefs on everyone, and if the majority of people in organized religion were the same in that way, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I wish more members of organized religions spoke out against the fundamentalists because then I think people like me wouldn't feel so harsh towards them. I do not mean to correct you on your world view, but I think you will agree with what I am about to say, as you alluded to it yourself… The term “Pagan” can mean so many different things. Let’s start with pagan vs. Pagan. Simple capitalization says something about what people believe. It is like god vs. God. God (capitalized) is the Abrahamic God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, where god is simply speaking about any gods. I try to adjust my capitalization based on the discussions and people I am talking with. To say what pagan is, or is not, is difficult. Since the invention of Judaism and Christianity (and then Islam) “pagan” basically referred to anyone that did not fall into those 3 groups, basically any polytheists. To say it is not an organized religion is both correct and incorrect. Sometimes it was much more than that. If we are talking modern Pagans, it is very diverse. It can be as personal as one wants or as organized as one wants. Some groups are very organized and have a rank structure or a High Priestess (or something along those lines) and hold as much or as little power as the group decides. I would certainly agree that most modern Pagans are fairly unorganized when compared to the major world religions, especially Christianity. That has not always been the case though. At times I would argue it was more than just organized religion, it was inseparable from culture/society. In a lot of cultures, like the one I described earlier, there was no organized Church or anything like that, but it was part of who they were. Their religion was part of their culture. There was no talk about what their religion was, they simply sacrificed to the gods because that is what you do and that is how one stays safe. Is this organized religion, or not? If not, I would say unorganized religion is also capable of horrible things. I am glad you do not just go around condemning people. I too like to call out those who are wrong. I know you really do not dislike all of them, but I ask you this… Realize these people you dislike are the vast minority. I know this because I deal with the same issue in atheism. The vast majority do not care enough to do or say anything. They just simply live their lives and do not give it much thought. The people you always hear from are the fundamentalists because they are the most passionate. On social media all you hear from, when it comes to atheists, are the loud-mouth New Atheists because they are upset and have an agenda. The atheists that simply do not believe in a god do not care enough to go around tweeting about it. We have a skewed perception of how many people, or the percentage of people, are actually fundamentalists, they are just the most visible. That is just something to keep in mind. Thanks for sharing your opinion. |
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Post by Wren on Jan 8, 2015 6:19:51 GMT -6
That thing about the fundamentalists may be true, however the non-extremists don't do enough to call them out on it. So it continues.
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